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Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 12:50:31 -0500
To: webgrrls-toronto@cgim.com
From: taracc@lglobal.com (Tara Cleveland)
Subject: TWG: Re: webgrrls-toronto-digest V1 #192
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Reply-To: taracc@lglobal.com (Tara Cleveland)
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I just wanted to post a note saying that I COMPLETELY agree with Lynna.
Since the first message about this issue my boyfriend and I have been
having huge debates over the  issue of censorship via software programs.
I'd just like to add a couple of other points to the debate...
>
>The problem with programs like these is that even if they don't have the
>kind of political agenda that CyberSitter does (it's connected to the
>right-wing group Focus On The Family),

I don't believe that most parents who buy the software realise that these
companies have a political adgenda. Most people who are members don't know
that Blockbuster Video is connected to right-wing Christian fundamentalists
and censors movies. Blockbuster has taken over so much of the video market
in the US that they now have influence over what movies get made and what
they contain. I don't think that many people are aware of  this incidious
and hidden kind of censorship. I wonder what influence this type of
blocking software could have on web sites. Could the Globe and Mail, or CNN
eventually decide not to publish something over the web because millions of
people would not see the site because CyberSitter or some other company
filters it out?

>>That choice is legally with the parents of any minor child, the definition
>>of a minor being set by the state of province.  When the child achieves
>>majority, they have the right to make certain decisions for themselves.
>>Parents make stupid, counter-productive decisions for their children every
>>day.

Yeah. Parents do make stupid desicions for their children. They can also
be extremely controlling and abusive. I think that some people really
forget what a difficult situation many teenagers find themselves in. I went
to an alternative high school where about 30% of students lived on their
own barely able to scrape by on student welfare (which is even less than
regular welfare why did the govenment think that apartments, food etc. were
cheaper for teenagers? are they just supposed to eat less?). Student
welfare has since been cancelled and there is no alternative for teenagers
with abusive or generally unliveable parents. If my parents had been as
right-wing or controlling or even abusive as the parents of some of my
friends there would be no way that I could get access to material that they
did not find appropriate, even if that material was a lifeline for me. What
happens when parents stop using CyberSitter to protect young children from
obscene material and use it as a punishment instead?

>To me, cutting kids off from information that could save their lives or
>their sanity crosses the line. And it disturbs me how many of the
>blue-ribbon folks have happily supported filtering software as a means of
>getting the moralists off their backs - and onto the backs of someone even
>more vulnerable. It seems to me as if a lot of people don't care if kids
>are denied access to information they might really need, just as long as
>nobody interferes with *their* right to look at naughty pictures. Adults'
>pleasure seems to take a higher priority than kids' safety. 

Brandi also mentioned something along the lines of  (sorry if I don't get
it right I didn't save the original note)  "if you don't pay for the
computer you can't complain about not having access to everything." Well,
most teenagers can't afford a computer, let alone internet access. I know
that my parents wouldn't allow me to have a job of any sort, even
part-time. Teenagers are caught in a catch-22. Everyone thinks that they
should be responsible for themselves and if they don't have the money than
they should just shut-up and deal with it. But nowadays if you want any
kind of a future (even if you want to be able to support yourself with
McJobs) you have to finish high school. If you want to be successful in any
way you have to have a fair amout of very expensive post-secondary
education. I know that I was often caught in the trap of "if you don't do
as we say, we won't help you pay for university" and it was a choice
between having a $40,000 loan and complying with my parents' request. Not
to mention that I probably wouldn't have been eligible for OSAP because my
parents' income was too high. And my parents were very cool compared to
most (I love them dearly). So, you see, it's not quite as simple as saying,
"if you can't afford it don't complain." Kids should be afforded the
dignity and respect that an adult recieves, but a lot of people see
children as not quite human (at least not yet).

>I wouldn't let a small child surf the net unsupervised any more than I
>would let her go and walk down Yonge Street unsupervised.

Yeah, I also don't think that I'd let a six year-old run amok on my $5000
computer which I depend on for my livelihood (and it's a Mac so a six
year-old should be able to get around it more easily ;-)  ) . If a parent
lets their little kid play unsupervised on such an expensive and complex
piece of equipment they have got to be nuts!!!

>It's a scary world. But putting blinders on kids doesn't make it any less
>scary, it just makes them less prepared to deal with it. I would do my 
>best to raise my kids with a solid set of values, and I would *talk* to 
>them about the problems that there are in the world. When they were old 
>enough to understand and handle it well, I would go with them to some 
>of the sites I find objectionable, and explain to them what was wrong 
>with those sites. I would raise them to be able to think critically and 
>be responsible.

I'd just like to point out that if your kid goes to school outside of the
home they will be exposed to much more than just naughty pictures and
you've got to train them to deal with stuff they shouldn't have to deal
with. I remember kids bringing Playboy to school when I was 10!!!  That
wasn't from the Internet, the corner store... it was from under their
father's or older brothers bed. I remember drug dealers at my Junior High
School. I remember the Heritage Front leafleting high schools. You can't
just filter out life and society from a kid, you have to make them examine
the things they encounter critically. You have to do this before the
Heritage Front leaflets them, or before a little boy shows a copy of
Hustler into the face of your eight-year-old daughter and taunts her with
it.

>>You will never be able to talk sense into a mother who's 10 year old daughter
>>has just downloaded pictures from feral.com.

 I don't think that it is really easy to come across this stuff
unknowingly. I have NEVER unwittingly downloaded ANYTHING I found
particularly offensive and it's not because I'm especially hard to shock.
The only way I could think of a 10 year old downloading nasty pictures from
feral.com without deliberately doing so, is if s/he connected to it by
using a bookmark someone else had set. So keep all your bookmarks "Family"
rated and teach your children how to critically analyse the stuff that they
do run into. Then, hopefully, they will be able to deal with the big bad
world.

Thanks for all the thought provoking debate.

Tara Cleveland