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Going Through Fire:

An Electronic Discussion on Gays and Lesbians in Wicca

Copyright 1993 by the individual writers quoted. This is an edited version of a discussion that took place in the Wicca echo of the PODS BBS system over the course of several weeks in early 1993, collected and edited by Lynna Landstreet. This version originally appeared in The Blade & Chalice, Issue 3, Spring 1993.

To: Ben Gruagach
From: Durwydd Mac Tara

Is there any desire within the gay community to create a "Gay Wicca"? This topic was brought up in a private conversation, and it seems to me to be an almost "silly" concept and unnecessarily divisive. Of course that perception on my part may be due to my being heterosexual. I have found that someone's being gay is merely another personal characteristic amongst many, such as hair color or physique. Consequently, I have little patience with some of the divisiveness I see in many people, gay or straight!

Am I being realistic or merely ignorant?

To: Durwydd Mac Tara
From: Starwyn

I have a dear friend in Kansas City that has a strictly gay coven. He doesn't call it Gay Wicca per se, but he does rewrite a lot of things to fit his ideas. He stresses that non-gays think completely differently than most gays and he writes his rituals to suit that need. The call to the Lord and Lady is exceptionally well done, and he is a powerful Priest.

I myself have never separated the gay-vs.-non-gay issue in religion, but he seems very content with his teachings, and from what I know of him and his group, I respect them very much. Maybe not coming from a strictly gay standpoint, we don't have a clue to the needs and aspirations of the people in question.

I think I understand your meaning here, but by all means, if someone feels the need to practice their religion in this form, they certainly have the right to do so without a fuss from the rest of us, wouldn't you say?

We can't possibly understand someone's inner needs if we don't open ourselves to the possibility of them being true needs. Everyone has the choice (I would hope) to practice their religious beliefs in any way they see fit, and in my opinion no-one has the right to take that away from them, even if we don't view it as valid for us.

I'm not implying you are trying to invalidate this need in others, but I suggest you chat with people who do feel the need and try and understand their views before dismissing them as silly. We all might learn a thing or two.

To: Durwydd Mac Tara
From: Lynna Landstreet

DMT> Is there any desire within the Gay Community to create a
DMT> "Gay Wicca"? This topic was brought up in a private
DMT> conversation, and it seems to me to be an almost "silly"
DMT> concept and unnecessarily divisive.

Depends on your point of view. Traditional Wicca can come across as very het. It usually has a heavy emphasis on male-female polarity, and while some gays and lesbians can work with this, interpreting it in a non-sexual way, others find it extremely alienating. Even those who can work with boy-girl polarity may also want a space where they can experiment with other currents that are more directly related to their own life experience.

DMT> I have found that someone's being "gay" is merely another
DMT> personal characteristic amongst many, such as hair color or
DMT> physique.

In an ideal world, it might be. But we don't live in an ideal world. There is a lot of prejudice against gays and lesbians that there isn't against, say, skinny people or redheads. Also, sexuality and relationships tend to take a more central role in most people's lives than body building or hair dye.

There are ways in which sexual orientation affects ritual performance. For example, when I do a wine blessing with a straight priest, he's likely to be experiencing the act on a certain level that I'm not, and I've often felt a certain imbalance of energy in those situations, because hets are used to reaching for a certain resonance that just isn't going to be there with me. A gay priest, on the other hand, will tend to balance me better. So there are certain differences.

To: Durwydd Mac Tara
From: Julia Phillips

A magazine in New Zealand recently received a letter from someone calling himself "Pagan Faggot", criticizing the Pagan Alliance for not specifying gay male Paganism as a path within the generic religion. He'd seen the leaflet the Pagan Alliance published, which is a guide to those paths most commonly practiced today, which did not include gay Paganism as a separate path. In fact, he extrapolated this to assume that the Pagan Alliance had banned gays from membership, which is ludicrous!

My response pointed out that in my view, people are Pagans; not hets, not gays, but people. What my sexual preference may be is not at issue as far as my Pagan religion is concerned.

To: Julia Phillips
From: Ben Gruagach

I hope you didn't take this particular person as representative of all gays, lesbians, and bisexuals. Some, like me, quite enjoy working with everyone, regardless of sexual orientation or other differences, and aren't looking for reasons to get in a huff.

I'd give this individual as much credence as I'd give a person who wrote in complaining that a group must have banned left-handed people from membership if they didn't explicitly include left-handers in their leaflet.

On the other hand, the group could include something in their leaflet that states that they are "open to pagans regardless of gender, past faiths, physical ability, age, sexual orientation, tradition, political affiliation, etc." or something to that effect. The guy wouldn't have anything to gripe about if it was obvious they were inclusive, even if they don't specifically name his pet minority grouping.

In other words, don't sweat the flakes. When the wind starts to blow, they'll flutter off.

To: Durwydd Mac Tara
From: Kayleste

I, too, have questions for gays involved in Wicca. At the present time, I do not know any personally, so I can't ask it of them. Perhaps others here can fill in? How do gays fulfill the male/female polarity usually required in ritual? I know there are cases where it wouldn't be a priority, as in Dianic or feminist rituals. But most of the covens I know of are based on balance. This includes the balance of male and female energies.

My parent coven had a gay man petition for entry into the inner circle. My HPS was hesitant due to the fact that he wanted to portray feminine roles in our rituals. She felt that he would be unable to project the female energy correctly. I'm afraid I must agree -- am I wrong?

I have had many gay friends, so I sympathized with the man who was denied entrance into our group. However, as I stated, I had to agree with the HPS about the difficulties presented by the situation. What a dilemma!

How have others handled this problem? I would appreciate input on this topic, since the situation may confront me as HPS. It would be helpful to me to have some reference other that the one instance I have spoken of. Any comments?

To: Kayleste
From: Durwydd Mac Tara

I am a hetero male, and I have no problem manifesting either energy when called to do so. I would suggest that if someone does, then they are in dire need of more training. I must disagree with your HPS that external orientation has to dictate what and individual is capable of manifesting. For some individuals with little training or desire, yes, but as a generalization this is dead wrong! I also have seen male homosexuals manifest the Horned Lord far more effectively than most "straights" (including myself)! Perhaps this helps to explain my confusion?

To: Durwydd Mac Tara
From: Mr. Man

I also was a bit taken aback by your calling "gay Wicca" silly and wondered whether you thought the same of Dianic (all women) traditions. I don't perceive you as being homophobic; I do see where you are coming from. The pagan community has as many factions as the Christian community, with as much in-fighting and jealousy.

I have been a gay HP for about 7 years and my attraction to a gay group is multifold.

First of all, in most trads, the Lord and the Lady are lovers, and a lot of the energy and mysteries within the coven stem from this coupling. I am gay. I find men sexually appealing and spiritually uplifting. If I joined a regular, het coven I would not find it on some levels particularly interesting, enlightening or exciting.

Secondly, in a het group I would not be able to contribute 100% to raising energy while working. Yeah, sure, I could probably do a Great Rite with a HPS, but my mind would definitely be elsewhere.

Lastly, I and others in my tradition (Minoan Brotherhood & Minoan Sisterhood) do acknowledge the duality of the Lord and the Lady. The Lord represents our Brother, Father and Lover, whereas the Lady is our Sister, Mother and Friend (The opposite is true for Minoan Sisters). But for us the qualities of the God and Goddess are archetypal rather than literal absolutes that must be reflected in circle. We see this duality within ourselves and thus are at odds with other trads who, I feel, only see their corresponding roles reflected through their sex.

The circle is my temple and it is built so that I can declare myself and celebrate in a spirit of harmony and good-will. Yes, I can do this in a het circle, and I have, but it's more fun to do it with a bunch of queers, for I feel it further unites us, elevates our hearts, and turns our minds toward the Gods, as opposed to hiding our most basic parts beneath a façade of heterosexuality.

Sex is a major part of the Craft and I can't see putting it aside to appease the masses and blend in. If I could in a Gardnerian het circle do a magical working with a man and do the Great Rite with the HP with no negative feedback from the purists, then I would be in a het circle. But reading too many books by the Farrars and Raymond Buckland have turned me off of het traditions. I don't run to find the spiritual above me or beyond me. I wish to find my epiphanies from my own experience of peak moments and nadir moments. I think it's best to dig in my own life to find out what the history of the spirit is -- and it's queer.

To: Kayleste
From: Melizand

I've worked with many gay Wiccans in circle, both male and female. My partner for quite a while is a bi (but predominantly gay) male, and one of my better teachers is a gay woman. In these same circles, we have also had very het folks (myself included). It's not really that different in the way the energy feels. I've also followed an eclectic/Dianic path, and have at times had members of either sex play roles generally reserved for the opposite sex, depending on the needs of the ritual and the people available to participate.

The single undercurrent is that you always need a female, or at least someone with a lot of female energy, to act as HPS. It helps, when working with a partner like mine, if the HPS has a healthy dose of male-feeling energy (which I do), because in this way the energies of the HPS and HP find their own balance. Because he still identifies with the male role, and I am (energy-wise) predominantly female, we can both as a unit accept the God and Goddess into ourselves to enact the Great Rite, although it has always been strictly symbolic. The powers come upon us less as individuals than as a unit, a complete whole of male/femaleness.

The other roles within the circle are more flexible. One very good lesbian friend of mine has often taken the part of the Maiden -- with her it's a stretch, because she exudes male energy, and doesn't seem comfortable with the sexuality of the Maiden. On the other hand, the lady who often takes the Crone (as the by-far most knowledgeable person there) is also lesbian, and completely comfortable working in that place. Her energy is almost neutral in feeling -- she has a strong recognizable female component, but she has also a strong male energy when she chooses to allow it to come forward.

I'd say you need to work with this person until you are all comfortable with the kinds of energies he draws to himself. Some men do have a very female energy type, and some do not, and it is not always bound to their sexuality. The same is true of women. You may want to send him off to a more eclectic and less traditional system, however, if you have a hard time resolving it within your own context.

To: Kayleste
From: Chaym ben Avrom

K> How do gays fulfill the male/female polarity usually required
K> in ritual?

Since almost everyone identifies with and radiates the energy of either male or female -- even if it does not correspond to the sex of their physical body -- they serve the role that is best tuned to their spirit. It has long been a common concept in the Craft that a women who wields a sword takes on the role of a man, and may serve as a priest. Is it any different for a man who identifies as a woman, radiates the energy of a woman, and is attracted to men, to serve in a female role?

Someone who is gay might be more attracted to Dianic Wicca, but even those who are heterosexual -- as I am -- find the equality of a Dianic circle attractive. Yes, there are straight men who have been initiated into Dianic Wicca, at least the more moderate variety. I know, I was. It's a big transition from that to working in a coven that has the same person always serving as HPS at every ritual.

The biggest difficulty is that the Craft is finally having to come to grips with the rest of humanity. In past years, the Craft and society in general were able to ignore people who were gay, of other races or handicapped. We didn't have to make allowances for them, nor did we even have to recognize their existence. It was once accepted that anyone who wasn't white, European and heterosexual, wasn't a candidate for the Craft. Times are changing, and we will have to adapt.

To: Kayleste
From: Michael Thorn

It is clear that people are limited in their ideas about lesbians and gay men in the Craft by their experience and teachings. I've been a Gardnerian for 19 years and lead a coven so I have a conservative background. I am also a gay man.

To begin with I know many men and some women who have been denied entrance to a coven or denied advancement because of their sexual orientation. This is indeed unfortunate. Some of your comments are based on the particular suppositions that your practice and presumably your coven bases its work upon.

Polarity is a dangerous concept -- and this is not hyperbole on my part. When we assume that to work effectively or relate to our deities we must assume polar positions, it is harmful and limiting.

Each person should become all that they can. Each should discover their role and place in the Craft without gender or other restrictions. This includes and is not limited to conducting rituals and channeling/possession by the God/dess. An experienced Witch should be able to work the range or spectrum of energies that include the Goddess and God.

Polarity theory would tell us that the best type of coven for magickal work is one in which there is an equal number of women and men are present. This is a rare situation. It also assumes that just by virtue of their physical gender, each person is equally able to manifest the energy of that gender. We have all met people who have a wide range of energy abilities. It is simply not true that physical gender guarantees energy output.

What is an alternative to polarity as it is commonly thought of? Energy flows. Simply put, but true. If we seek the simplest explanation, we arrive at this idea. Energy flow between all things -- men, women, rocks, trees, etc. Again, a basic, simple idea. Witches should be trained to work with energy, not to be "polarity invalids."

We are all the Goddess. We are all the God. We can each manifest either Deity if we try. This is my experience and it is not unusual in ceremonial magick to do this.

It is sad that a gay man was refused training in your coven. I hope that he was not turned away from the Craft. Someone who does not fit into one group may fit into another.

These are some thoughts based on my experiences and work with others. I hope that they inform and spark your thoughts.

To: Michael Thorn
From: Ellen Reed

Michael, my first student was gay. I had been taught there was no place for gays in the Craft, and after much thought, meditation, etc. decided that I did not agree with my teacher. As Julia mentioned in another message, people in pagan circles are pagans first and foremost, and although our coven doesn't, at this time, have any gay members, a person's sexual orientation would have nothing to do with their acceptance or non-acceptance into our group.

To: Durwydd Mac Tara
From: Kat

Hmmmmmm.... I would think that as a Wiccan I would have to look at the issue of gays in Wicca as being just as right as heterosexuals. We are all of us both male and female. In heterosexuals this oneness has, through culture, training, and physical differentiation, become balanced either male or female. With the homosexual I would tend to think that this balance has been changed, and that they are balanced the opposite direction than their physical body was designed. This is obviously something that the Gods have ordained, or a lesson that the person chose to learn before birth, and should be viewed as any other lesson.

I think that the whole heterosexual outlook on homosexuality is a bit off kilter. The Native Americans used to honor them as being special, the animals let them be, and other cultures have always had their homosexual sector. It is only our modern culture that finds anything wrong with this, and I suppose that this must have to do with the Christian, mainly Puritan, influence. It's awfully hard for modern men and women to get past the stereotypes that we are raised with. A glove and ball for a boy, and a dolly for a girl. Dress for a girl, and pants for a boy. Cars and fire engines for the little boy, and a baby buggy and bed for the girl. Perhaps it's time for the Wiccan community to give up the stereotypes?

To: Kat
From: Durwydd Mac Tara

K> Perhaps it's time for the Wiccan community to give up the
K> stereotypes?

I tend to agree. That is why I am not sure that the divisiveness of a strictly gay trad is at all wise! I know Gays, Lesbians, and Bisexuals who function well in various trads. In fact out of all of the best HP's and HPS's I know, none are completely and narrowly single-gender, exclusively-hetero identified. I am, myself, heterosexual in practice and external identification, but very much bi emotionally; i.e. I am emotionally attached to other males as well as females, yet only sexually attracted to females.

To: Kat
From: Lynna Landstreet

K> With the Homosexual I would tend to think that this balance
K> has been changed, and that they are balanced the opposite
K> direction than their physical body was designed.

Interesting perspective -- I don't know if I would say "opposite," though. I don't feel that, as a lesbian, I have a particularly male sort of energy. In fact, I've know straight or bisexual women who come across as a lot more masculine than I do.

I have experimented a little in ritual gender-bending, particularly while I was running a lesbian coven some years ago. We did the typical blade-and-chalice wine blessing between two women on a number of occasions, varying the words in different ways to suit the occasion.

From my experiences on both ends of that particular polarity, I definitely "click" better with the feminine side, though I can do either one, and find that my own energy is strongly affected by the energy of the person I'm with -- i.e. if I'm doing the blessing with a woman who's even more strongly feminine than I am, I will take on the masculine role more easily. But by and large, it's not the role that comes easiest to me.

To: Kat
From: Michael Thorn

K> With the Homosexual I would tend to think that this balance
K> has been changed, and that they are balanced the opposite
K> direction than their physical body was designed.

This is an old idea that doesn't seem to fit reality. How are lesbians and gay men "balanced in the opposite direction"? I tend to think that heterosexuals have the limitations. Gay people are trained to be hetero from an early age and can handle a great deal of the energy. Can the same be said for heterosexuals? My experience says no. I find that lesbians and gay men are often better able to mediate almost any type of energy in ritual because they are adept at shifting and adapting

To: Michael Thorn
From: Kat

Since I am heterosexual, I can't judge your words fairly. I will have to think about this a bit. I do acknowledge, however, that heterosexuals are more constrained to be what they are than homosexuals are. Until the last thirty years homosexuals have had to hide for fear of discovery, a condition that I know still persists for some even today. I am sure that more homosexuals have had practice learning to be both ways than any heterosexual has, if for no other reason than to hide their preferences from the public and family for fear of being shunned or hurting family. It is still wrong.

We are who and what the gods made us to be. We need to stop putting people into categories. We need to quit dividing our energies into one type or another. We are, at the bottom line, human beings. We need each other, and we need to give up the stereotypes that divide us. Only when we can do this, without hesitation, will we truly be advanced and evolving. We aren't parakeets to fight and kill the different. We are human beings with a level of logical thinking that we profess to be proud of. If this is so, then let's start using our logic.

To: Kat
From: Michael Thorn

While we are all people, we are also all special, and should embrace and celebrate that specialness. We each bring something different to our religion and groups. That is what makes group work exciting for me. Let us not forget the differences, but treasure them just as we do our commonalities.

To: Durwydd Mac Tara
From: Ben Gruagach

There is a movement afoot called "Radical Faerie" that consists mostly of gay/bisexual men who use paganism to celebrate their identities as sexual beings. There are political overtones, but like most paganism, it is largely decentralized and unstructured. Anyone who calls themselves a Radical Faerie can be one, and there aren't any hard-and-fast rules about what one has to do to become involved.

From the lesbian viewpoint, there have been all-women (Dianic) covens around for quite some time, many of which have a strong lesbian element. They, like the Radical Faeries, often have a political element involved in their ritual work. People like Z. Budapest (author of The Holy Book of Women's Mysteries, and The Grandmother of Time, among others) are quite established in the lesbian pagan community.

Pre-Gardnerian paganism and occultism has always had an element of homosexual/bisexual involvement, too, as often the "special" (i.e. sexually different) one in a community would be selected and trained as a shaman. At least among the native Americans, cross-dressing has played a large part of shamanism. Native gays and lesbians were often called "two-spirited people," having a greater balance between their male and female sides.

Today, there is ongoing research and creative ritual being devised to explore gay and lesbian paganism even further. There is a lot of homosexuality in the ancient pagan myths, but often it was glossed over or changed to make it more acceptable to the repressive Christian majority. Gays and lesbians are also trying to bring some other views into mainstream paganism, to help deconstruct the inherent heterosexism in society, and consequently free all people from repressive stereotypes.

If you want to do a bit of really interesting reading that's relevant to all pagans as well as gays, lesbians, and bisexuals, try and get your hands on a copy of Judy Grahn's Another Mother Tongue: Gay Words, Gay Worlds (Boston: Beacon Press: 1984). It talks at great length about pagan religions and gay involvement in them, along with the origins and reclamation of various interesting terms.

The purpose of gay/lesbian/bisexual paganism is not to separate from the rest of the world, but to help carve out a secure role for ourselves in the tapestry of life that is paganism and sexuality. It is our attempt to define ourselves on our own terms, to express ourselves using terms and rituals of our own devising, while integrating with our parent society as a whole.

To: Durwydd Mac Tara
From: .Nisaba

We, as merely human, express polarity easiest in terms of sexuality, because humans are deeply sexual beings. But does that mean that the Gods have to be sexual? Can they not be completely beyond our comprehension? My own sexuality is ambivalent at times and to me that's not a problem, although it might be to others. I look on the Gods as being beyond our ken, as being as much larger and more complex than us as we are to a flea. How can a flea ever possibly begin to imagine what it is like to be human? And how can a human ever possibly imagine what it is like to be a God?

We can only understand Divinity in terms of our own humanness, just as a flea can only understand humanity in terms of flea-ness. Thus, we project our sexuality upon Them, and that's fine, just as long as we know we're doing it. Tolerance of difference is important, here, because we are so different to the raw energy of the Gods. If we are intolerant of others, we can expect intolerance back.

It's those who refuse to admit differences in humans who will in the end have the greatest difficulty in dealing with the final, total contact with divinity.

To: Kat
From: .Nisaba

In many shamanic cultures, it was homosexuals who had taken a spouse of the same sex who were favoured for training as shamans (see Mircea Eliade's works). Also, in the animal kingdom homosexuality is quite common. How many of us have seen two male dogs copulating in the streets? If you spend any time around cetaceans as I once did, you will find that porpoises and dolphins cheerfully indulge in homosexual play, too, and although I haven't seen whales doing it I see no reason why they should avoid this practice of their relatives.

To: .Nisaba
From: Black Widow

Speaking of cultures that encouraged homosexuality, how about the Romans and the Greeks? The Romans encouraged homosexuality among members of their army and look at what they accomplished. Look at the Greeks, they encouraged anything and everything and that was a magnificent culture. How about the Egyptians? Although they weren't as well known for it, it did happen and, again, this was an incredible culture. Ah, the list could go on and on....

To: Kayleste
From: Lynna Landstreet

K> How do gays fulfill the male/female polarity usually required in
K> ritual?

Just because we don't sleep with the opposite sex doesn't mean we can't work with them in ritual. I work with male priests on a regular basis, both gay and straight (I find I tend to "click" best with the gay ones though), although I also enjoy all-female ritual, and work with a women's group some of the time.

K> My parent coven had a gay man petition for entry into the
K> inner circle. My HPS was hesitant due to the fact that he wanted
K> to portray feminine roles in our rituals.

Let's not confuse gays with transsexuals. Most gay people do not want to be the opposite sex, nor even necessarily to take their place in ritual. I certainly have no great craving to become a male priest.

There are some people who do strongly identify with the other sex. They are either full-fledged transsexuals or at least gender-dysphoric to some extent, but they aren't always gay -- there are transsexuals who were "straight" as the gender they were born to, but gay or lesbian in the gender they want to become. Several of the male-to-female TS's I know are lesbian or bisexual.

There are also some people who don't necessarily want to "be" the opposite sex, but want to explore, at least some of the time, roles usually reserved for them in ritual. This may be simple curiosity, or discontentment with the dogmatism of some traditions around gender roles. There is nothing about wielding a sword that requires having a penis, or about holding a chalice that necessitates a vagina. These are culturally ascribed roles. Personally, I feel that a little experimentation can be a good thing. Some teachers require students to play both roles at times during their training, so that when they become teachers themselves, they will be better able to teach students of the opposite sex. But again, this has nothing to do with an individual's sexual orientation.

It is up to you (and your coven or trad) to decide how firm or flexible you want your gender roles to be. There are many ways of working with polarity, and no one of them is right for everyone. But you certainly do have the right to tell someone that your version of Craft is probably not what they are looking for, for whatever reason, and encourage them to keep looking for one that is better suited to their interests.

To: Lynna Landstreet
From: Durwydd Mac Tara

Personally, I found that "Drawing Down" the Goddess into myself was one of the more enlightening experiences in my Craft career (so far)! I would recommend that all Priest/esses have the experience of manifesting the opposite gendered Deity!

To: Lynna Landstreet
From: Starwyn

While I was a student, my teacher would have never have allowed us to do only gender-specific work. We had to be able to do all parts, male or female, and be fully comfortable with them before she'd pass us on to the next stage. I do the same with my students. It's my belief that one must learn to get in touch with and balance both female and male sides of themselves to fully understand their whole self, if you will.

To: Ben Gruagach
From: Kat

The most important thing that I tend to think about when dealing with the gay community is that they are as the Lord and Lady made them to be, and it is not my business, or right, to have an opinion either way. Who am I to second-guess the Gods?

Society still has problems with gays, mainly because of the advent of AIDS, but we have to realize that sexual diseases pertaining to mankind have been around since the dawn of time, and probably will continue till time stops. They last time I was at the county health department, where I take my daughter for her six month checkups, they had a pamphlet on sexual diseases that was more than just a bit scary.

There are some completely hetero diseases out there that are just as bad as AIDS, and they are getting more and more common. Some of them attack women exclusively, and they are deadly unless treated immediately. With this in mind the old blame-the-gay-community-for-AIDS attitude just doesn't wash. The disease factor has always been there, and will always be there. Blaming anyone just isn't logical.

Our sexuality is something that mankind has tried to overlook for centuries. Now that we are, slowly, getting rid of the fear, we are learning more about ourselves. Some of it we don't like, but who ever said learning was easy, fun, or without risk? To learn is to grow, to deny learning is to stagnate. Sometimes we have to go through fire to learn, but the cool afterwards is always worth it.


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